I was at lunch with a peer and friend the other day, telling her a story about how a mutual acquaintance had called me out of the blue to ask for some marketing counsel, which of course I gave her. My lunch companion said, “I hope you charged her.” Gulp.
I’ve been in the business for 20+ years. Owned my own agency for almost 13. I know better. But I still give away too much milk. And then I get frustrated when no one wants to buy the cow. I know I am not the only marketing professional out there who struggles with knowing when a simple conversation turns into a billable opportunity. Am I?
I’m not suggesting that I carry a time clock in my pocket and start punching in every time someone asks me a question over a cocktail or at a networking event. But when someone asks you to have coffee or if you “have 10 minutes” at what point do you know this has turned into a business transaction?
And, how do you gracefully let them know it has turned into a business transaction? I don’t want to even think about how much money I have left on the table over the years because I didn’t have the answer to those two questions.
Don’t get me wrong. I want to be helpful. I want to be generous. I’m even okay with being an absolute fool now and then. But, I also want to be a smart business owner.
As Steve Lovelace said in a post on this topic: “Nobody expects their architect to work free… so why would you?”
Have you figured this one out? I really would love to hear how you handle these kinds of situations.
Great discussion everyone. I don’t think anyone is arguing with the notion that we should be generous with ideas in generalities.
Would you write a marketing plan for someone for free?
That, I think, is the crux of this discussion. Not if there should be a line…but where should it be.
Drew
Great conversation here. My take is simple: Ideas are easy. Making ideas happen is hard.
That’s why I give away milk all the time.
My blog gives aways ideas. My manifestos give away ideas. My conversations give away ideas. My email replies give away ideas.
There are enough places (consulting gigs and speaking gigs) where I can make some scratch from my idea-giving that I’m not concerned about giving away too much milk fro free.
Give-aways are always a good idea when you have a product to sell. They get tricky though when you are a service-oriented business. Essentially, you end up giving away ideas – rather than showing off what you have made.
I do find that running a service oriented business does make it more difficult to give away samples. The key is being able to successfully talk your potential clients through the problem they are having, rather than just sit back and listen.
Whenever someone calls up wanting to talk about a service, or we sit down for a lunch to talk about how we can help assist a new client, it’s important we seek first to understand and THEN to be understood. The second part is key. We need to know when to stop listening, and start telling. Back that talk up with examples of what you’ve done. Show them where you’ve made it work before. Prove to them you can do what you say you can do.
Drew:
In my past, this has been a problem. In fact, it’s what made me decide to get back on the client side of the desk…I was giving free advice to my friends and colleagues “over lunch” but not getting paid for it. What I realize now is that I was doing a lot of guessing, too!
Today, it’s not a problem because I don’t believe anything I’d give to a client after meeting with them for an hour or so over lunch is worth much. I spend most of that time demonstrating my knowledge – and answering their questions – by telling what OTHER brands are doing. I discuss the D.I.R.T.Y. brand model, give examples and then ask questions.
It’s selling, not consulting.
When I’m asked about strategies and tactics, I tell them the truth: I don’t know their brand well enough to answer that. Then, I introduce our brand discernment process…the purposeful, valuable and time-consuming engagement that costs money. It’s in-depth, it’s candid and it’s hard work getting to know a brand and understanding how to demonstrate that brand. Anything less is just guessing, in my mind. I think guessing is what seperates us from a conventional advertising agency that will talk with the client for an hour then knock their socks off with a beautiful ad that looks good but doesn’t look like the client. The client realizes it six months later when the bill’s been paid but the ad (or any other execution) didn’t work.
Longer discussions reduce the guessing, and they cost money, so I’m willing to work hard to sell that concept.
-Mark
I am sure you know about where the line is between demonstrating your expertise, figuring out the prospective client’s needs, and the optimal time to stop giving free information. There are times when you just know they won’t end up a client and it is just an enjoyable conversation.
But consult Miss Manners and use a bit of diplomacy to turn a conversation into a prospective business relationship. Perhaps your goal could be to gracefully earn an opportunity to follow-up with them on Tuesday or whenever works?
Drew: I give away single size portions of milk-based recipes all the time. I’m a huge “got milk?” evangelist. I tout the value of calcium, believe in whole not 2%, and prefer organic.
I draw the line at actually milking the cow, though.
It’s a bit like the difference between reading the bible and becoming a saint. There’s the thinking and the doing. Telling someone about the power of promoting their brand with a Hollywood property is great, but they still can’t do it without a lot of help. Same with blogging, advertising, or negotiating an endorsement deal.
We have to be clear what our value add is and what we really bill for. We (probably) don’t get paid to have cool ideas. We (probably) do get paid for executing them in such a way that the client makes money.
John (Moore),
I think everyone who has commented gives away ideas via blogging, podcasting, their books, etc. etc.
No argument there. Giving away “generic” ideas is one thing. But, do you draw the line when someone wants ideas specific to their company or product? Or do you choose to keep giving away ideas, with the intention of being hired to execute those ideas?
Drew
Mack,
So am I hearing you agree with Mark True (a comment a few after yours) in that — you are all for talking in generalities and offering ideas/thoughts based on generic good practices.
But…when a company asks for counsel specifically tied to their objectives/agenda — that’s when it becomes a paying gig?
Drew
Debra,
Interesting distinction — prospect versus paying client. I think Lewis is the only one who has addressed that so far.
But you’re right…they are different. And without a doubt, all of this is subject to individual case discretion. I was just curious if others wrestle with it (and I think we can safely say…yes!)
Drew
Gavin,
“This means investing upfront in process, systems and content. Making it bite sized. Accessible. And probably cheap.”
I’m reading Michael’s book too and I agree completely. I think the question for most people is when/how do you make the shift.
Drew
Drew … if its an emerging business, I will almost always spend a few minutes and share ideas for how to solve some of their marketing issues.
I draw the line when its an established business, one with a proven track record of growth. For those businesses I will gladly share ideas so long as we have a working agreement in place. This is where my scratch comes from. Dig?
A sip is fine. A bottle isn’t.
The Follis Marketing Report:
Expert Advice and Insight to Build Your Business Better.
Here’s a possible way to move a free relationship forward and is appropriate on March 2. Send an invoice to all your “clients” with the amount you feel you’ve spent, and then “zero” it out at the bottom. Oh yeah, make sure it inludes what you’ve actually produced for them, not time spent.
My PR consultant Todd Miechiels, has done a TON of great work for us and I gladly pay him top dollar.
His deliverables are worth it.
Andy:
I think I’m in the first five… and I’d love to see your book!
Giving a little knowledge away (in the form of articles, blogs, white papers, etc.) is an easy way to distinguish yourself from the competition and demonstrate your expertise.
Here are a few insights from my own experience:
– consultants are more at risk from clients who try to squeeze them than from prospects who want free advice.
– a prospect who won’t pay for an initial consultation is
generally not worth pursuing.
– giving a little time away here and there can pay dividends in the long run.
– it’s usually obvious who just needs some advice and who’s trying to really milk you.
Thanks for a stimulating thread, Drew!
– Aryeh Narrow, MarCom Specialist
AdScientist.wordpress.com
Great dialog here! And a topic many of us face constantly.
I think there have been many excellent points made here. The bottom line is that we’re all different, with varying levels of tolerance and desire to share our talents pro bono. Each one of us must weigh the pros and cons of each situation and judge it accordingly. There’s a balance we find depending on where we are in building our careers and reputations.
There have been times when I’ve been taken advantage of in a big way, which tended to make me more cautious the next time. I’ve also been very generous with my time and ideas and good things have resulted. The longer I’m at this, the better my radar becomes.
Who you are advising is the key to free or not. We break it down into subcategories and follow these guidelines:
1. Complete strangers who you are not meeting with: Don’t solve their problem for free, simply point them toward a direction like a lighthouse for free.
2. Prospective client in a meeting who might have money: Do what interior designers do. Talk about how you’d attack the probelm but don’t solve the problem for free.
3. Current client: only free advice is the five-step process to attack the problem but never solve it for free.
4. Peers: Stay focused on the process for solving the problem and not the actual solution. Offer to partner in developing the solution.
5. Great friends: solve it for free…that’s what friends are for.
I’ve brought this topic up on my small business forum. ‘How much is too Much” I’ve posed the same questions.
Online networking works best when one can position themselves as a resource, though knowing when and where to draw the line seems to often be a conundrum. As many in the consulting field have responded.
When I am offering helpful advice and people are asking for more, I’ve started responding ‘Is your local grocery store giving away free groceries this week’?
I have a great relationship with the network members, I no longer give the milk away.
As far as a friend calling me for advice, I go into a mentor/coach mode and no longer the consult mode. My mindest like that of my college days while bartending – friends stopping in because they thought they’d get free beer because I’m their buddy. Indeed I am your buddy but this is business, nothing personal.
This is such a hard one…. I’d like to say we have rules, but really we’re operating on guidelines. “We get paid for our ideas,” I’m fond of saying to our team members, though as Stephen said, we really get paid for implementing ideas that make our clients money.
We never charge anyone for a first meeting, and we’re happy to spend an hour with anyone who might be a client now or in the future, or who might know people who need to know about us… we do give some milk away in those meetings but we try not to actually give them a blueprint for success. I teach a marketing and personal sales night as part of an entrepreneurship series at our local community college several times a year. Give away some milk there, too, but people starting new businesses are what will keep expanding the market for our services. I view it as an investment in our future. Some students (these are adults, typically leaving a job to start their own companies) have later become clients.
When something doesn’t go the way I think it ought to, I say, “Well, they didn’t ask me…” So when someone DOES “ask me,” I try to answer with some thought and for some benefit to the asker. So yes, we give away some milk. When I have to move a conversation to a billable level, I usually say something like, “Wow, Jerry, you have an interesting challenge in front of you… I’d love to talk more about it, but I have to run to a client meeting. Kids need shoes and all, you know? I have some time next week if you’d like to meet more formally to talk about some next steps to move your plans along.”
Amazingly, most people do get the hint
@Andy: I’d love to get a copy of your book! I’ve been meaning to learn more about how to do word-of-mouth marketing and your book sounds fantastic.
@Drew: I’m an occasional Daily Fix reader…but it’s been a long time since I saw this many comments on one post!
I work in retail marketing, so I sell products, not services – it’s a little easier for me to draw the line as to when my friends should pay.
However, I still find myself giving product away for 2 reasons:
a) These are my friends
b) It’s an opportunity for my friends to become brand ambassadors.
Vincent
Andy,
I’ll take you up on your offer, too. I’m a big fan and a reader already.
Thanks,
Kelly
Drew,
The way we work the conversation is to think of ourselves during that coffee as therapists. We’re listening, we’re drawing your questions and your own answers out of you. We’re not really offering solutions but may help you direct your thoughts.
I find this makes people feel
Listened to (since that’s what it is),
Empowered (since some of the answers generally do lie within ourselves), and
Hungry for more (since talking an issue out often raises more questions than it answers).
If nothing else, I get a blog article or two out of the concerns the prospective client has.
It works pretty well and it starts the relationship off on the right foot.
Regards,
Kelly
Andy,
If I counted correctly, my request makes #5 and I’ll take you up on your offer, as well. It sounds like a great read.
I liked what Mike (Fox) had to say. I think we tend to (and probably should if we don’t) categorize on several different levels. Maybe at some levels you or I would give away one or two solutions. Hopefully those good friends are providing some free solutions for you, too. But the point is that how we respond to requests often depends less on the request itself and more on the requestor, and the topic, and the context…kind of like how we tailor our marketing strategies!
Regards,
Steve
Mark, (True)
Hmm, a very interesting distinction. The notion that I think both Andy and John Moore were referencing — give away ideas in the abstract.
And you’re right, it’s a little like a doctor diagnosing someone at a cocktail party. You can only do so much until you can really conduct an exam.
Drew
Neil,
You could be right — maybe it is as simple as scheduling a follow up meeting. Or combining that with the suggestion to follow up in writing with a few action points, including where you could be of service.
It allows the consultant to be active in the budding relationship, rather than just waiting for the prospect to call again.
Drew
Stephen,
Good to have you weigh in. It’s interesting how many define the “line” as making something happen as opposed to the idea itself.
Do you think most marketing consultants give away the planning/ideation time?
Drew
John (Moore)
Dig.
Interesting that you define the line based on the longevity of the company and your inclination to mentor the young companies. I haven’t heard anyone draw their boundaries quite that way before.
Makes sense, both in terms of long term investment in the new and the assumption that the more established has they money to pay you.
I’m going to ponder on that one a bit.
Drew
A one-hour free consultation is a great way to demo the goods, and to confer perceived value upon your initial prospecting conversation. Ideally, the free consultation is scheduled separately – a distinct conversation after the one you use to qualify the lead – which serves to set it off as a value in and of itself.
Interestingly enough, the “consultation” may work best when it is 65% listening – a key ratio both for building relationships and for making a sale.
For one thing, asking smart questions about their business can often be the best way to get clients/prospects to think you’re brilliant and command an excellent understanding of their issues. (“Did you do that to increase your operational efficiencies, or to better engage your sales force in your marketing program?” “If your immediate goal is to boost your same-store sales, why do you think social media is your best option at this point?”)
In that context, you can “give away” some suggestions based on general principles without giving answers tailored to the specific situation. (“Did you ever consider analyzing the ROI including referrals as well as immediate transactions?” “Would it make sense to focus your strategies by behavioral segmentation instead of psychographics?”)
Maybe the way to think about where we draw the line is between the “What” and the “How.” It isn’t giving away much to show them What needs to be done.It only serves to confirm what they already sorta know, and whets their appetite for the next step. Our expertise lies in knowing How to do it way better, faster, and more cost-effectively than they can on their own, saving them time, pain and money on the way. And for that, they need to pay us.
“But when you cross over to giving away tactics and strategies that are tailored to specific circumstances for specific people/companies/etc., then you’ve gone too far and are leaving money on the table, IMO.”
Spot on. We do search marketing, and there’s no option but to do a lot of explaining and educating. Understanding the problem and talking possible routes of fixing it is just what you do. When people are trying to get the magic recipe, I just say something along the lines of, “To be able to really answer your question and tell you what needs to be done, I’d need to dig into your site and see what’s going on. I’m happy to give you the rates if you feel like that’s what you need.”
People have to understand that you get paid to tell businesses what to do. We have a packet of free tools and tips, a PPT deck that gives an overview of SEM, and some other stuff we can hand off to people who can’t afford the actual work. Stopping taking those tiny clients who really can’t do all the investing and work needed has been a very good thing. They wind up needing a ton of hand-holding that’s very hard to bill for if you’ve set yourself up as the marketing cow.
Sorry to be so late to this lively party. You know, it’s pretty shocking that nobody’s brought this up, I think. But Andy’s comment (forgive me for not reading every post) are marketing tactics where one person is talking to lots of people at the same time and not solving their specific problem. That’s marketing.
But, Drew is speaking about a one-on-one which is a sales conversation because it is to solve a specific problem.
When someone asks me for advice, I say “You know, that’s what I get paid for?” and then we both chuckle. But, most people understand. I tell them that I’ll give them one tip for free but I would only do that for a friend.
Drew, just get a little tougher and think about using a free 15 or 30 minute session with you for them to talk with the intention of turning it into a business development appointment.
Marketers are helpers by nature. Don’t feel too bad. Excellent post!
Sorry, I’m even later than Anne, although I commented on this topic earlier…
I got a call from a friend over the weekend, exact same scenario, “Hey, I have a problem, can you solve it.” I rattled off a theory I had and once I hung up the phone, it hit me like a ton of bricks: The reason people don’t put a value on the service is because we as marketers, naturally helpers, think about a situation for a second and give them an answer less than a minute later. So to the person asking for (free) advice, there’s no effort on your part.
What I will do in the future is take down the information and say, “hey let me get back to you.” At that point you’ve silently told this “friend” that some time and effort will go into their situation.
One of two things will happen, both in your favor:
1. They will stop calling for free advice.
2. They will see the value in your service and not be suprised when the topic of compensation is brought up.
When something is fast and free, it holds no value to people. Whew! I’m glad I worked that one out…
This must be the consultant’s ongoing dilemma. I’m always being asked for help for free and as Lewis and many others suggests, of course you go along with it, often picking up the tab for the coffees, muffins and sandwiches too.
My way out of Freemansland and into Consultant Country is to give a little, the to explain, “Look, what you need is this… And I’m happy to give you some pointers and feedback but if you want some serious advice and assistance, that’s the point where I have to put on my professional hat.” For those that still don’t get it, I explain further “This is actually how I earn my keep, so if I don’t charge my clients for my very valuable services, very soon I won’t be available to anyone at all, because I’ll die either of starvation, or exposure, or both.”
They usually get it at that point.
I particularly love my dear friends who have a half-baked brainwave, and call me at 10:00PM at home wanting to tell me about their latest GRQ business idea, expecting ringing endorsement, and a business plan back by breakfast time, all for free.
I usually let my wife handle them. She’s brilliant.
I have built many a brand strategy on tutorial marketing or expertise sales and the entire principle of “giving to get” is easy if you are selling more than advice. Implementation is the service. , not the advice itself. Most people don’t want to do it themselves. They want to think they can, but at the end of the day they can’t. Sometimes giving away your expertise is the best way to convince them to hire the firm or buy the product.
i think if you are making enough money to live, there can not be any harm in helping others. this can also lead to more recommendations, those free milk people might know people who have lots of milk to give. maybe this is too woo woo, but i really feel like when you put kindness and help out there to others , that generous vibe has no choice but to bring you success in other ways.
i say, share. it’s not like you never charge and are homeless.
Sometimes I give away the entire farm and then their eyes glaze over because they don’t exactly understand how to implement everything. That positions me as the expert and then I can just say “here, I will do all of that for you so you don’t have to for **this much money**.”
I address this “free” information request this way, “That’s a great question, we have a process that we use to answer those kinds of questions. Let me put together an estimate and get that to you asap. I’m sure we can solve your problem and help you grow your business.” That’s when they throw on the breaks!
I address this “free” information request this way, “That’s a great question, we have a process that we use to answer those kinds of questions. Let me put together an estimate and get that to you asap. I’m sure we can solve your problem and help you grow your business.” That’s when they throw on the breaks!