Comments on: The War for Marketing Control

By: Mack Collier

Mack Collier — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:14:21 +0000

“Does anybody really still think that dialog, conversation, building community and working with the audience/ community to craft a way to spread the message is not the way to do things?”
Since we are bloggers and spend a lot of time online, we see how easily communities can form and come together. For companies/marketers that aren’t as online saavy, it can be harder for them to realize just how quickly their customers can come together, and how many tools they have to communicate easily and relatively effortlessly. Which of course is no excuse, this is why you need to be in constant communication with your customers, so you know what tools they are using to communicate and congregate, and use these same tools.

By: Tim Jackson

Tim Jackson — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:19:47 +0000

Excellent post… again.
“So which side is winning this war? If you have to ask this question, then be certain that YOU are on the side that’s losing.” Tht’s my favorite part and really does make the greatest amount of sense.
I’m not a trained/ educated marketer, so I have never really felt qualified to comment on the Cluetrain phenomena, but isn’t it all really just common sense? Is it really earth shattering? If so, then maybe this whole idea of “us against them” still makes sense to you. (Please don’t think I’m trying to be an ass or insulting, because I am not.) Honestly, I’ve never read the whole book because it all just read like common sense to me- though a bit condescending in the delivery.
Does anybody really still think that dialog, conversation, building community and working with the audience/ community to craft a way to spread the message is not the way to do things?
The old way of creating a message and force feeding it to the audience is dead, or at least terminally ill. Creating evangelists who go out and do our evil bidding for us is really the most effective way to make this all happen.
I also like the comment that “we walk with them”. So true. As with all social media, if you are not involved in the community and are just trying to push a message… it will get lost and/ or ignored.

By: Mack Collier

Mack Collier — Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:30:20 +0000

“And a marketer is wrong if he or she doesn’t listen, adapt to, and ultimately, become a part of the community.”
Bingo. That was my whole point, let’s stop worrying about who has control, who’s winning, let’s worry about how we can work together to make EVERYONE winners.

By: Paul McEnany

Paul McEnany — Wed, 28 Jun 2006 01:42:51 +0000

Although it’s probably not about who’s wrong and who’s right, I do think it can be said that the community is never wrong.
Now, they may not have their facts straight, or whatever, but how they feel and how they react is never wrong, it’s just how it is.
And a marketer is wrong if he or she doesn’t listen, adapt to, and ultimately, become a part of the community.

By: Mack Collier

Mack Collier — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:43:46 +0000

“IMHO the Cluetrain was a badly written book, and was a massive failure in many ways because it chose to talk down to its key audience, ie. business people.”
Exactly. Whenever you’re trying to present a new idea, or an old idea in a new way, you need to realize that HOW the message is delivered can be as important as the message.
“As for Beyond the 30 second spot, I don’t know, Jaffe hasn’t sent me a copy yet ”
Well he did let you drone on for 30 mins in an audio comment to ATS.
No wait….30 mins was how long it took me to download it….

By: karl long

karl long — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:44:29 +0000

“But how much of what we read in Cluetrain was revolutionary, and how much was simply a new way of expressing an old idea?”
I think the cluetrain was the first to admit that it was rehashing a very old idea, ie. conversation was the first “medium” or “media”.
IMHO the Cluetrain was a badly written book, and was a massive failure in many ways because it chose to talk down to its key audience, ie. business people. Bloggers liked it because it makes them look smart and business people look dumb, which is why it might get talked up in the blogosphere, but its just too full of hubris for many business people to choke down.
As for Beyond the 30 second spot, I don’t know, Jaffe hasn’t sent me a copy yet
K

By: Ann Handley

Ann Handley — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:03:11 +0000

“When you tell marketers that, ‘You are wrong, the community is right. Deal with it!’, many of them will cave to human nature, stick their middle finger in your face, and say, ‘No YOU deal with THIS!’”
Much as THAT is human nature…I also think it’s human nature to view issues through a lense that’s already created, rather than try and create a new lense. The control over the marketing message is definitely shifting, and it seems it’s hard for us to see that there’s no good guys and bad guys, no pure marketers and pure markets…rather, it’s one big rolling connected mass.
That’s a little scary, and off-putting, and unsettling…as we try to get footing in a shifting landscape. So in my view, that instability is the breeding ground for the “war” Mack describes.

By: Mack Collier

Mack Collier — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:01:43 +0000

“”It’s time for the Cluetrain to pull into station-stop “Reality” and show us some success: what happened, where it happened, how it happened.”
Uhhh, the cluetrain is more of a commentary on the changing structure of business and markets. The cluetrain made some predictions and some broad suggestions like “participating in the conversation” but it was not presciptive.”
But how much of what we read in Cluetrain was revolutionary, and how much was simply a new way of expressing an old idea? Is ‘markets are conversations’ a revolutionary idea, or a new way to describe ‘word of mouth’?
“The cluetrain has nothing to prove. The amazing to me is that it isn’t the number one business book in the world right now.”
On the other hand, I am amazed that Cluetrain gets all the pub, while books such as Life After the 30-Second Spot seem to lag behind.
I think bloggers have such a strong attachment to the book because they feel it ‘predicted’ the blogging explosion. And I do think it’s a good book, I just don’t love it as much as some do.
I re-read some of it a few weeks ago, and what really struck me was that the ‘People=good, marketing=bad’ theme seemed to be influencing the writers. Sorry, but I don’t buy the ‘marketing is a necessary evil’ mentality.

By: Karl Long

Karl Long — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:02:51 +0000

“It’s time for the Cluetrain to pull into station-stop “Reality” and show us some success: what happened, where it happened, how it happened.”
Uhhh, the cluetrain is more of a commentary on the changing structure of business and markets. The cluetrain made some predictions and some broad suggestions like “participating in the conversation” but it was not presciptive. It was written in 1999 before the real social media explosion, before youtube, before flickr, before myspace, before facebook, before tagworld, before technorati, before podcasts, befor vlogs, before secondlife….
The cluetrain has nothing to prove. The amazing to me is that it isn’t the number one business book in the world right now.
When the worldwide chief creative officer of of Leo Burnett says
“Marketers must learn to let go of the control they think they have over their brand…. Once consumers have interacted with brands they will not go back to being shouted at by marketers.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/bf054f88-01da-11db-a141-0000779e2340.html
You know things have changed.

By: Ryan

Ryan — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:57:19 +0000

Well said, Mr Collier.
Walk with them, instead of talking to them

By: Jonathan Kranz

Jonathan Kranz — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:42:41 +0000

Let’s approach this issue the way Alexander appraoched the Gordian Knot:
Show me the results. Anyone with time and a blog can post a manifesto. But very few people can show real, actionable results as a consequence of their rhetorically-inflated opinions.
It’s time for the Cluetrain to pull into station-stop “Reality” and show us some success: what happened, where it happened, how it happened.