Comments on: Second Opinions: Take Two Aspirin and Call Me in the Morning

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Wed, 16 May 2007 20:20:22 +0000

Su,
You make a good point. Most clients won’t get into a debate about strategy but because we are all consumers of marketing creative — therefore we must all be experts!
I don’t think we’ll ever get completely away from clients being influenced by others’ subjective takes. The key, as several of the commenters have mentioned is:
1) Earning your client’s trust
2) Testing and taking the subjectivity out as best you can
Drew

By: Su Doyle

Su Doyle — Tue, 15 May 2007 17:01:54 +0000

Drew, you’re right on the mark. It’s difficult to get any input on thought leadership, product strategy and demand generation, but there’s no shortage of input on website, collateral and logo design. No training or skills are required to qualify as “an arbiter of taste”.
The most important opinions to factor in are from your target audience — and they may have no input at all. If you’re selling financial software, ask your CFO for input. He/she may be pleasantly surprised.
Of course, if you’re marketing hair care products, go ahead and test your new logo with your hair stylist…

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Tue, 15 May 2007 03:44:59 +0000

Ed,
Valid points. I have often said, the computer has not always served the marketing industry well. Before the computer, what we did was magic. Now, a 12 year-old can use clip art and a spinning font and voila, we have an ad!
I agree with your stance. Our standard line is — you pay us to give you the best of our expertise. So, you have to listen to it. But, if you still want to do it your way, after you listen — we’ll do it your way. After all, it is their money. But if it happens repeatedly — we know the relationship isn’t going to hold and we’re better off letting them find a new vendor. I have no desire to be a vendor.
Do you think part of the problem is that the perceived risk of getting it wrong is small or at the very least, hard to measure? If an architect gets something wrong, people are going to die. If a logo’s color doesn’t reflect the brand promise — will they know? Is it measureable in terms of sales?
This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks for jumping in!
Drew

By: ED ROACH

ED ROACH — Tue, 15 May 2007 02:10:09 +0000

While it is true that everyone’s opinion might be helpful, let’s face there is no shortage of opinions. I believe this common problem is hinged on the fact that there is no genuine respect for for the industry as a whole. Architects are designers also BUT they command a great deal of respect from the public. They have industry standards and strong professional criteria. Try calling yourself an architect. Marketers/graphic designers are there own worst enemies. Any bozo with a computer can call themselves a graphic designer (and do). Desk top publishing when introduced about 25 years ago only excelerated this nonsense.
We all fight this battle. It’s a shame we have to resign clients or prove our worth with data, on the battle field. A lot of comments here reinforce the client’s behaviour with the acceptance of a client’s best friend’s hairdressor’s opinion. I don’t believe this problem has a solution this late in the game. For myself, I protest to the client and state my professional opinion and if I lose, I state that I am going on record as dissapproving of the decision and move forward with their direction. When their decison falls flat, they only have themselves to blame.
So to sum up, I don’t believe the problem lies with our clients but with ourselves – we have allowed and in some cases encouraged this behaviour.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Sun, 13 May 2007 04:39:41 +0000

Stephen,
We’re in agreement. The tactics you suggest pretty much match how we handle this situation when it comes up.
Fortunately, it is few and far between. But, I think depending on the business’ size and scope — many believe that research is outside their budget comfort zone.
I think its our responsibility, as you suggest, to build it into the proposals and help clients understand the downside of not pulling the trigger on it.
One of the arguments that we use is that in the end, they save money because we get it right the first time.
Drew

By: Jim Kukral

Jim Kukral — Sat, 12 May 2007 22:06:41 +0000

@Drew, Well, perhaps I’m a bit snobby, but I don’t take work unless the client understands that it’s going to be my way before hand. Otherwise, why hire me?
It’s the customers who want to argue with me up front that I send away.
Remember though, I’m not a full-time consultant, I have my own other web businesses. So I can be picky where others probably can’t. So I understand sometimes you can’t turn down work, and that’s fine.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Sat, 12 May 2007 04:19:01 +0000

Jim,
We do the 50% up front too. It just makes everything flow more smoothly.
I wonder if marketing pros could fend off some of this issue by addressing it before the project starts.
We have a standard “speech” that we give on this issue. We don’t run into the issue very often. So I am always suprised when it comes up.
Do you address it on the outset?
Drew

By: Stephen Denny

Stephen Denny — Sat, 12 May 2007 03:41:21 +0000

Drew: if the client habitually second guesses you and won’t pay for research, you’re probably not having much fun anyway; hopefully, they pay well.
If you don’t like getting second guessed, do poor man’s research — the web makes this pretty easy these days. It takes a pretty cocky client to turn up their nose at quantitative data.
Setting expectations up front — saying, “don’t know about you, but we’re big believers in facts, not feelings — do you agree?” might help clarify things, too. Say that research to validate your work is part of your proposal. If they want to cut it out, make sure they know that each and every revision is done on the clock with the meter running, so you can leave the office every day feeling pretty good.
This is all tactical stuff. The point is that we work in what can be a completely subjective space, where a bigger logo or the difference between teal green and Cheetos Orange on the package is a matter of one person’s personal taste — unless, of course, someone does the homework. Why not volunteer to be the one, especially if you’re the one in pain? At the end of the day, the work will be better and you’ll have something concrete to show new clients — who will trust you all the more, because you’re thinking like they are. It isn’t art, it’s business.

By: Jim Kukral

Jim Kukral — Fri, 11 May 2007 21:45:05 +0000

CK nailed it…
“But it really comes down to a balance of being open to feedback and then (politely) reminding the client that they hired us for a reason…and that we need to be given that trust in order to do our jobs.”
This is why I always get 50% up front. So I can walk away if they’re not going to listen to me. I mean, why not do it yourself then?
I don’t hire a plumber to clean my teeth. Don’t hire me if you’re not a marketer.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 11 May 2007 19:25:04 +0000

Gavin,
My partner in crime!
Thanks for the congrats. It’s pretty cool to be here with you all.
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 11 May 2007 19:22:18 +0000

Art,
Thanks for coming by. You don’t have to be a marketing pro to feel the pain of this post!
And as a guy who runs his own business — you better be a marketing pro! You’ve got to drive the sales. The reality is that every business person is a marketing guy/woman. Whether you want to be one or not!
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 11 May 2007 19:17:47 +0000

Stephen,
You make an excellent point. In the ideal world, every client would have an ample budget that would include research.
I’m curious — how do you handle it when a client either doesn’t have the budget for testing or doesn’t “believe” in it?
Do you walk away? Do you have a way to do a poor man’s research or do you go with gut?
Thanks,
Drew

By: Gavin Heaton

Gavin Heaton — Fri, 11 May 2007 13:29:09 +0000

Finally caught up with this one Drew! Excellent, as always … and congratulations.

By: Art Dinkin

Art Dinkin — Fri, 11 May 2007 12:47:34 +0000

Drew,
I really enjoyed reading this and it hit home for me… even though I am not a marketing pro.
This phenomena is common in my field too. Despite years of experience, credentials, and actual “cold facts” too, I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard “My _________ is a big investor and they said I should …”

By: Stephen Denny

Stephen Denny — Fri, 11 May 2007 03:53:34 +0000

Drew: wonderfully incindiary post.
The problem is that we, as marketers, just too often put out fluff without substance. If your hairdresser (or client) doesn’t like your logo idea, show them the chart that says 57% of their target does — so how about more cutting and less talking.
Without facts, we’re all just throwing opinions in the air. Packaging, logos, brochures, and all the stuff that can be measured, should be measured. If an agency doesn’t like being second guessed, make room in the budget for testing.
Subjectivity is a great equalizer.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 11 May 2007 02:48:51 +0000

Cam,
I think my point was more that the marketing professional was not given any additional credence and that clients sometimes let everyone and anyone influence their opinion rather than relying on their marketing partner.
I agree with you. There’s no degree required for a good idea!
Drew

By: Cam Beck

Cam Beck — Fri, 11 May 2007 01:48:02 +0000

Drew – GREAT first article. I couldn’t be happier for you.
I think you’re right… We’re in agreement. It just hits a little close to home when someone is disqualified from being listened to because of his pedigree. Opinions have to stand on their merits, not simply because of who says it.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 23:22:53 +0000

David,
Agreed. Much like I said to Spike, sometimes the battle isn’t worth it. I never mind a good discussion or pointed questions from a client. In fact, I like that. Let’s learn more from each other. Everyone wins.
But, when my opinion holds no more weight than the poodle groomer’s — I take issue.
Fortunately for us, we have incredible clients. This is not a problem that we run into very often and it’s not systemic, it’s circumstantial. I can live with that!
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 23:16:30 +0000

Spike,
It’s a sticky wicket for sure. We work with our staff not to talk badly about or belittle clients but to respect them and hold them up/honor them where they are.
But sometimes clients are unbearable. The minute you turn that corner, you should do just want your boss did — resign the account.
We won a very prestigious account. They talked about wanting a partner, etc. etc.
Within 6 months, we were their vendor. It wasn’t worth it. If I am going to work my butt off and ask my employees to do the same, we deserve to do it with/for people who respect our talents.
We resigned the account. Never looked back.
Drew

By: David Reich

David Reich — Thu, 10 May 2007 21:41:37 +0000

Good to see your byline here, Drew.
Since a lot of what we do is not hard science or precise like, say, medicine, many people think they can do it. And, who knows, maybe they can.
But if we have the expertise through education, experience and previous trial & error, we need to exert our expertise and gently remind clients that we are, in fact, the experts and not the hairdresser or accountant. Anyone, including a hairdresser, can have a good idea or a useful insight and when you see one, try to use it. But clients need to be told we’re the experts they’re paying — unless they want to hand over the account to their hairdresser or accountant. If so, good luck to them, and we move on to a client who appreciates our work and counsel.

By: Spike

Spike — Thu, 10 May 2007 20:35:45 +0000

Gianandrea,
Bravo! My third year here, our president fired one of our largest clients for reasons along the lines of this post. We grew their business like crazy, but were always second-guessed – always. When she fired the client is was scary as hell – and exhilarating. We felt free. Ad in the long run, we were a much stronger company for it.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 20:19:05 +0000

Ann — ah, root canal. When I put that through my teenage daughter translator it comes out “shoe budget.”
Nedra — LOL! Good point. But in that case, hopefully we are listening to many more than one teenager!
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 20:17:21 +0000

CK,
Thanks for the welcome. It’s very cool to be here. Sort of like getting to sit at the grown up table for the first time!
I think you used the right word — it is about balance. (As much of life is) It’s listening and hearing underneath the story to the concern or the fear and then teaching to that. And of course, staying open to the possibility that you might be wrong.
Drew

By: Nedra Weinreich

Nedra Weinreich — Thu, 10 May 2007 19:59:24 +0000

On the other hand, if you’re marketing to teenagers, you might want to listen to what the babysitter has to say.

By: Ann Handley

Ann Handley — Thu, 10 May 2007 17:51:44 +0000

Drew wrote:
“I have discovered that very little in life cannot be likened to life with a teenager!”
…especially the painful parts, like root canals, blisters, getting hit by a bus… that sort of stuff. (LOL!!)

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 17:26:05 +0000

Gia,
Ahh, firing a client. While it’s sacry — it is also incredibly liberating. And honest.
The truth of it is — if we cannot earn their trust for whatever reason, we cannot serve them. And if we cannot serve them, we have no business taking their money.
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:57:14 +0000

Ann,
I have discovered that very little in life cannot be likened to life with a teenager!
I’m not advocating that we stop listening. That would be about us, not about the client or their needs.
But I am advocating that we stop caving when a client has been unduly influenced by someone who’s take on the project or situation is off base.
Ultimately, what I am advocating for is that we take the extra time to really educate our client about the whys and hows so they feel comfortable defending their own choices and the choices we’ve guided them to.
Thanks for the warm welcome. I’m thrilled to be here!
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:46:45 +0000

Mike,
And you’re able to set that expectation because your clients trust you.
And you also have the advantage. Your clients are usually pretty ignorant about blogging. So tehy almost have to rely on that blind trust.
Unfortunately, because everyone is a consumer of marketing, many assume they have the expertise.
So we have to work up a sweat sometimes to help them understand that we do this for a living AND (and it’s a big and) we care about their success and outcomes as much as they do.
Drew

By: CK

CK — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:44:46 +0000

Great to have your marketing smarts here, Drew. Yes, marketing is one of those disciplines where everyone is an expert . In a sense everyone is an expert, if they’re part of the target market for the program or collateral.
But it really comes down to a balance of being open to feedback and then (politely) reminding the client that they hired us for a reason…and that we need to be given that trust in order to do our jobs. That said, there will always be second/fourth/umpteen opinions–I feel your pain.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:40:45 +0000

Mack,
But of course! Thanks for the welcome!
Drew