Comments on: James Arthur Ray – Is He a Marketing Wizard Gone Awry?

By: LeeKuanMajor

LeeKuanMajor — Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:12:00 +0000

As I recently reviewed the Bible I was SHOCKED to find that God is NOT sweet, loving, nice and wonderful to the dishonorable who break their promises. As for judges who give people the legal right to break their promises God is even less merciful to them. All the most loving things God has ever said throughout Biblical history were for the honorable who keep their promises.

As a matter of fact, according to the Bible, those who judge will be judged even more harshly. Indeed they will! If judges give the dishonorable the ability to legally break the promises people make, with full police protection, I would imagine they can expect to burn in hell forever. Yes, I believe the fires of hell are reserved for the dishonorable and judges who give protection to those who are dishonorable.

Are people who testify in court still required to swear upon the Holy Bible?

Oh well…. Glad I’m NOT dishonorable and I’m also glad I’m NOT a judge!

JUDGES

PART 1: You judges have people swear on the Holy Bible. Well, I have prayed extensively about this James Arthur Ray matter. What I have seen is that James Arthur Ray is guilty of believing more in those people than SOME OF THEM believed in themselves on that day. Certain people wanted so much to justify James Arthur Ray’s faith in them that they deliberately ignored their own bodies telling them they were dying and kept going back into the sweat lodge to justify James Arthur Ray’s faith in them! James Arthur Ray MUST NOT be held responsible for people who ignored their own bodies and kept going back into the sweat lodge. That is not legally right!

PART 2: James Arthur Ray did everything he legally could to protect himself from such people. Honorable judges must NOT punish James Arthur Ray for believing more in people than they believed in themselves! It is not right to do so! It is not “honorable”. You officially “honorable” must indeed be more officially honorable than I am. You must be able to see the logic in this revelation of the Spirit. Please, do not eternally condemn yourselves by being dishonorable judges. For your own sake. Pray about this matter on the Bible you hold as dear and realize that I am stating the truth!

ARIZONA JUDGES

It seems I fight an uphill battle to be “honorable” among a people who are increasingly dishonorable. So, YOU are “officially honorable”. What does that mean? Do you keep to the agreements you make in writing? If you feel a sweat lodge is too hot and you can’t handle it do you go back in until you need to be hospitalized then lie and try to get out of the agreement you signed? What does it mean to be “honorable” in this day and age? You judges really need to teach the human race this because most OBVIOUSLY don’t have much of a clue.

By: Lee Kuan

Lee Kuan — Mon, 31 May 2010 23:30:27 +0000

When the honorable make an agreement they don’t need contracts. When the dishonorable make agreement YOU MUST have a contract. Still, the dishonorable will try to find a way around the agreement they signed.

IF THERE IS A HELL IT IS FOR THE DISHONORABLE!!!

By: Lee Kuan

Lee Kuan — Mon, 31 May 2010 23:25:16 +0000

(These are an important two posts. I created them on a Native American site:)

Let’s put it this way:

A group of six White People decide to go to one of YOUR Native American sweat lodge ceremonies. You charge them nothing and there is no liability waiver to sign. One person ends up dying and two are hospitalized. The families of the White Person who died are determined to throw you in jail and the remainder of the White People are determined to testify against you and that your were negligent.

SHOULD THEY WIN THE CASE AND THROW YOU IN JAIL?

WHY NOT?

*I assume you are going to say they should not throw you in jail

MY COMMENT AFTER THEY TRIED TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT:

You think you are slick, but I am slicker than you! I know your tricks on trying to change the subject and not answering my direct questions. I feel like slapping your faces and demanding you answer my direct questions. Of course that is not possible, but that is how I feel when people like you try to change the subject. I have you psychologically checkmated and YOU KNOW IT!

And don’t give me any crap that in my scenario the White Man would not lie under oath to make you look negligent when you were not negligent. You should know by now that lying comes easily to the ‘fork-tongued’ White Man.

Trying to take James Arthur Ray for every penny he has is DISHONORABLE!!!! Do you have any sense of honor left or are you determined to completely sink to the dishonorable ways of the White Man? The White Man has no real sense of honor. That is why contracts and treaties are written up. Such contracts and treaties are mandatory when dealing with the dishonorable. The honorable need no contract in order to keep the agreements they make with others. You only need contracts when dealing with the DISHONORABLE.

The White Man made a treaty with James Arthur Ray and the White Man should be made to abide by the treaty they signed and not find some dishonorable way around the treaty!

If you Native Americans are angry you should be angry that the White Man made a treaty with James Arthur Ray and now they are trying to break that treaty in ways not unlike how the White Man broke the treaties they made with the Native Americans.

How dare you sink to the level of White Man hypocrisy and pretend you care whether or not the White Man dies trying to emulate your sweat lodge ceremonies.

How dare you sink to the level of trying to rob James Arthur Ray by acting as though you have some sort of legal copyright on how sweat lodge ceremonies must be conducted.

The White Man may have robbed you of many things. Don’t let the White Man also rob you of your sense of honor!’

WAKE UP!!!!!

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Mon, 24 May 2010 02:27:46 +0000

Thanks, Britt. The story continues…

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Mon, 24 May 2010 02:26:03 +0000

Good point, Malcolm. Sorry, if my reply is a little late.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Mon, 24 May 2010 02:24:42 +0000

Thanks, Marilyn. I agree that when people pay a premium, they may believe that it has greater value.

As for Ray starting up again, he already has. I’m on his list and he’s emailing regularly.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Mon, 24 May 2010 02:22:53 +0000

Lee, are you an attorney, by any chance?

One can say, “buyer beware” about anything. Some people will do the due diligence before making a purchase, and others are not as inclined. Some may have been mesmerized by Ray and bought into his promises fully.

Either way, there are zillions of incidents where people sign a waiver and then sue for liability because they didn’t realize all the facts. Is it fair to the party who asked for the waiver? Probably not. Should it get that party off the hook if s/he is negligent? Probably not. Should people who don’t do the research first rot in hell? Probably NOT.

Thanks, Lee.

By: Lee Kuan

Lee Kuan — Fri, 21 May 2010 21:25:09 +0000

What YOU don’t understand is that the information was out there that people have been injured at his previously held sweat lodge workshops. If (((YOU))) are considering spending close to 10,000 dollars at his workshop it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to do the research. Once you find out that people have been injured in the past it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to decide whether or not you want to take YOUR chances, pay the money and sign the liability waiver. Once you do, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to get out of the sweat lodge and STAY OUT if you feel you can’t take the heat.

A New American Axiom:

If you can’t take the heat, STAY OUT OF THE SWEAT LODGE!!

When you sign a liability waiver it is a matter of honor for you to keep the promise you made when you signed it. Only the dishonorable will try to get out of such an agreement they have signed. The dishonorable may win the legal case, but THEY DESERVE TO BURN IN HELL!!!!

By: Britt

Britt — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:12:30 +0000

Thanks for your article, Elaine. I’m cross-posting it on my blog.
Yours,
Britt
http://www.theflawofattraction.com

By: Malcolm Davidson

Malcolm Davidson — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:16:31 +0000

My wife and I run a small retreat center in RI and have a sweat lodge on the property. We do ceremony about every 2 months. There is no charge, merely a small donation envelope. I have to cut and split the wood, or buy it, buld the fire, heat the grandfathers(stones) My wife conducts the ceremony. We have been taught by native Mic mac and Blackfoot elders, plus some Lakota influences. All these teachings have empathy and concern as a common thread. In nearly 10 years there have been no problems whatsoever. In general humanity is driven by 2 emotions, “Greed and Fear”, JAR exhibits both in abundance, greedy for money and power, fearful of his own mortality.
Many of our native friends are greedy for wisdom, peace on earth, and acceptance of what is. For they have known so much torment, both individually and collectively.
Self help means just that! Be wary of those that promise too much.

By: marilyn

marilyn — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:08:37 +0000

Interesting point Elaine about the high fees. Is it a psychological issue that the more money you pay for an event the more you think you are getting an experience that no one else can have? In this case I am glad that I don’t have that sort of money.
My heart goes out to all the participants but as for Ray, my fear is that when the dust has settled finally, will he start all over again?

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:49:33 +0000

Thanks for sharing, Kurt. I wonder why people seek out people like Ray when they can receive spiritual guidance from their clergy for little to no cost. Do you think it’s the high fees that make people believe it’s worth more? What motivated YOU to attend one of his weekends? What was the hook that got you?

By: Kurt

Kurt — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:47:23 +0000

I am a past participant at a James Ray weekend retreat and have a different perspective than Gary. I failed to spot the compassion in Mr. Ray (expect his ability to cry at the appropriate moment). But I did spot the huckster, the con artist, and yes, the marketing wizard. Some of the folks who signed up for the next level were doing it with scarce funds. Some unfortunately were signing up for the ultimate James Ray con job, the Sedona retreat. My conclusion: You can get much better spiritual guidance from truly compassionate guides who won’t charge you thousands for the privilege.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:56:15 +0000

Ed, I, too, am a professional speaker (NSA), however, not for as many years as you have been. There are good and bad ones and many in between.
Some are motivational and have become well known, especially in corporate circles. What makes James Ray different is that he markets directly to his end users, not the meeting planners, so his exposure is higher.
I agree that we need to wait and see what materializes. However, his initial actions don’t place him in a positive light, no matter what transpires. It’s a similar response to a hit and run driver.

By: Ed Rigsbee

Ed Rigsbee — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:15:13 +0000

Elaine, I really do not know what to say. I have casually known James for years and found him to be a decent guy. I have mentioned in other forums that we should wait for more information before we convict him in cyberspace.
I try to put myself in the situation in which James found himself–and I will admit that I’m not sure what I would do. I would hope that I’d stick around?
I’ve been in the business of professional speaking for about 20 years–I do content more than motivation. And I must say, I have seen a lot of B.S. motivators during my years.
Back to James? It appears that he could have handled the situation a bit better–I repeat, it appears. Time will flush this out.
However, for professional speakers/motivators, good or bad, there is always another audience. -Ed Rigsbee

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:42:23 +0000

Gary, thanks for your contribution here. Your point is well taken. We really don’t know what happened. But, you must admit that fleeing the scene didn’t bear well for him. The media is having a field day.
I also appreciate your push back on which types of people take Ray’s seminars. Just curious… why do you think he uses and promotes the concept of “wealthy” in his work?

By: Gary Scott

Gary Scott — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:18:18 +0000

Hi Everyone,
As one of those “vulnerable” people that has taken a seminar from James Ray I have to comment on his behalf.
It is very easy to criticize from afar. I don’t know what happened at the retreat and neither do you. We don’t know how we will react under stress until we are placed in the position of stress.
My one experience with James was positive and I found him to be very compassionate and for this reason I am giving him the benefit of the doubt until the fact are known.
Remember, that we are innocent until proven guilty and also that some very large and savvy companies with millions of dollars to spend on spin have made big mistakes when problems occurred.
And BTW, not all people that sign up for James Ray’s seminars are poor and vulnerable. Some, like me, are just looking for answers that money doesn’t bring.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:21:15 +0000

That’s my “job,” adams. Thanks!

By: adams

adams — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:38:19 +0000

I generally concur with ‘Where there’s smoke’ thinking.
There are many VERY GOOD self-help speakers who are excellent marketers as well, who do not make the ’scandal of the month’ headlines. To me, this skews the thinking into a “if self help and is successfully marketed then he MUST be a charlatan” mindset.
This of course, false.
Nice post Elaine; makes you think.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:19:01 +0000

Barry, I don’t disagree. The people Ray markets to are likely looking for something, hence their vulnerability to his promises. But where is the line between marketing and con artistry?
Up until this point, this guy wasn’t on our radar screens. He had plenty of satisfied “customers” who returned for graduated sessions. It wasn’t until this true challenge of his character that we see the flaws and lack of compassion.
Here’s a good article on Ray by someone who has studied the self-help business for almost a decade: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/james-ray-and-the-176928.html

By: Barry Lauterwasser

Barry Lauterwasser — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:19:53 +0000

The power of persuasion is used by marketers and con artists alike. The difference being that people turning to guys like this are looking for personal truths and are struggling somewhere in life…and he is taking advantage of that lack of security.
I get where you were going with the article…and to some degree he was effective, but as I said he was dealing with people with some sort of deficiency in life and looking for answers. THAT is not marketing…that is con artistry at its finest.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:04:38 +0000

@cadillac sioux falls: I don’t think many would disagree with you there!

By: cadillac sioux falls

cadillac sioux falls — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:23:13 +0000

I think he fails on dealing with human emotion and handling catastrophes.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:36:20 +0000

Thanks for weighing in, Claire. I agree that there has been a long history of “snake oil salesmen” and that people are easily duped. I doubt this will ever change. It’s human nature for some people to seek out answers when they are lost or questioning their lives.
In the case of James Ray, I believe that he had a good thing going for himself – until Sedona. You’re right that he should not have fled the scene. He should have stood by his “brand” and cooperated fully.

By: Claire Ratushny

Claire Ratushny — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:21:36 +0000

Hi Elaine,
Marketing wizard or scam artist? It never ceases to amaze me how people with charismatic personalities can parlay their magnetism into seducing people to accept them as the gurus they’ve been waiting for. They are then able to get people to do all kinds of things. It happens over and over again, too, doesn’t it? First, there are motivational speeches. Second, the sharing of valuable information–free of charge of course. Then, there are all the extra goodies promised. Finally, the push begins to hawk books, self-help tapes, retreat pages, etc.
Let’s remember that a true marketer who stands behind his brand wouldn’t have been AWOl when the tragedy in Sedona occurred. That clearly didn’t happen. This guy ran for cover. Question is: when will the next snake oil salesman come along and dupe people due to his compelling, magnetic personality?
Sorry for my cynicism, Elaine, but this has happened too many times in recent years. Is that to say all self-help gurus are con men? No. But caveat emptor always applies here. Let the buyer beware. Don’t blindly follow. Question and do your homework. Find out whether the person you entrust your money and your life to are legit first. Better safe than sorry.

By: Elaine Fogel

Elaine Fogel — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:37:49 +0000

Thanks, Paul. Yes, of course, it’s more than direct marketing. What he does in person is quite mesmerizing, too. Plus, his TV appearances, books, yada yada. Until this tragedy occurred, I’d say he was a marketing wizard with a large pool of never-ending prospects from which to “sell.”

By: Paul Barsch

Paul Barsch — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:08:01 +0000

Elaine, I like your provocative title for this post, but as you know, the makeup of a “marketing wizard” is much more than the ability to create direct marketing copy or be smart enough to outsource this function. It’s designing the end to end experience that keeps customers coming back for more. The transactional relationship -especially for high end dollar amounts – is fading fast (too much competition chasing too few dollars).