Comments on: Can We Outgrow Marketing?

By: David Francis

David Francis — Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:38:53 +0000

I imagine this fear is a new phenomenon. I don’t need to tell anyone on this list about the rapid pace of technology, etc.
I’m reading Joseph Turow’s new book Niche Envy: Marketing Discrimination in the Digital Age (http://www.amazon.com/Niche-Envy-Marketing-Discrimination-Digital/dp/0262201658/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4419190-0825618?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194618427&sr=1-1). While I disagree with his premise and virtually all of his arguments, he does have a fascinating history of advertising/marketing since the late 1800s (chapters 2-3 – skimable at your local bookstore…). Quite simply, things are changing at a more rapid pace then ever before. (Surprise to no one.)
But as marketers we are on the front lines. We need to adapt and keep up not for a hobby but for our livelihood. I have no idea how I’m going to keep up when I have children – when things are even faster and I have less time.
I’ll lay it out on the table: I’ve been doing this for a couple of years and think I’m pretty good at my job (not to sound prideful). But until a week or so ago I couldn’t have told you what del.icio.us was. I don’t have a flickr account. I think corporate blogs are a waste for time for most businesses. I kind of set up an RSS feed once but didn’t really understand what I was doing. But I have to keep up with this stuff, even if I don’t use it or agree with it.
I think online marketers will need to meld the old and new. Questions like who is my audience? What do they care about? Why am I trying to reach them? What is the call to action – these don’t go away. The only thing that’s changed is the medium (and techniques, arguably). Perhaps that should give some reassurance – that the fundamentals will remain the same.

By: Chris Brown

Chris Brown — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:32:18 +0000

You can be “too old” at any age. I think it’s about being closed minded, deciding you’re not going to learn it, try it, find out about it.
If we were talking about playing pro sports, my opinion might be different, but this isn’t life / death & permanent injury, it’s marketing!!
Although I have my share of wrinkles & grey hair, I know that by connecting with people who are in different demographics than I am, I will learn as much from them as they from me. That’s one reason why I try to mentor people… and look for mentors for myself who are both older & younger than me.
This year the peak of the baby boom hits 50 and the peak of the echo boom hits 16/17. Learning how to learn and then constantly learning is the trick to avoid becoming too old, in my opinion.
I cut my teeth on marketing with G.I.Joe under the direction of a marketing maven named Bob Prupis. He was always saying to his staff “okay, what’s the next big thing?” I think that’s one key to staying current or ahead of the curve.
Chris Brown
Branding & Marketing blog

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:07:46 +0000

Desiree,
“I think as marketers it is important to ALLOW ourselves to be swept up into marketing campaigns that don’t fit us…whether we think we are too young for them, too old, too female, too this or that…doesn’t mater.
Immerse yourself without fear.”
I can’t top that. You hit the nail on the head! How do you personally know where to immerse yourself?
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:01:55 +0000

David,
Thanks for jumping into the conversation and being so frank.
You know, when I was your age I didn’t share your worry. I’m wondering if I was just clueless or if something has changed in the last 15 years to put all of us in a panic.
Can you articulate more specifically what has you so worried?
And for you old dogs — did you worry when you were David’s age? Or is this a new thing?
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:56:19 +0000

Anne,
Absolutely no offense taken.
Yes, we did testing on the rap (it was a jingle for a teens section of a daily newspaper) before we launched the campaign.
We also worked with some young musicians to do the score. I was just responsible for the words.
I will also tell you it was rap “light” as you might imagine. But we got the kids’ attention and interest.
Drew

By: Desiree

Desiree — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:08:41 +0000

I’m a 38-year-old female, a marketing director, and I play Halo 3…yes the video game. Love it. I know I wasn’t the demo that Microsoft marketed to, but like Cam Beck said, my constant curiosity kept me on top of new things and the next thing I knew I was caught up in the frenzy right before the game came out.
I think as marketers it is important to ALLOW ourselves to be swept up into marketing campaigns that don’t fit us…whether we think we are too young for them, too old, too female, too this or that…doesn’t mater.
Emmerse yourself without fear.
This will keep your perspective fresh, young, hip, all-good-in-the-hood or whatever you want/need to be as a marketer.

By: David Francis

David Francis — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:39:04 +0000

I don’t think you’re far off. I’m only 29 and I’m terrified of taking a sabbatical (not that I could ever afford to) because things change so quickly. That’s why I get up at 5am so I can write a blog, in hopes that one day it might turn into a book which might give some financial security for the future.
While you might be worried, know that you’re not alone, certainly. All of the young turks who seem up-’n'-coming are really sweating too.

By: Anne Rogers

Anne Rogers — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:02:20 +0000

“In my 20+ year career as a copywriter, I have assumed the persona of a 7 year old child, a very hip 16 year old (had to write a rap), a 35 year old mom (a project for Better Homes & Gardens & Kraft) and a 55+ man”.
Allow me to comment without meaning to offend. Yes, you may have done all this.. and yes, your clients might have agreed it was a success – but I’m dying to know what the actual 16 year olds thought of your rap!
Did you conduct any trial runs on panels of 16 year olds before going live?

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:50:59 +0000

Ivana,
Well, one way to recognize a trend is to see if popping up in all kinds of different discussions.
Apparently, we are sitting right on top of a trend!
Your post had some good ideas for how to stay current. I think a big one is simply deciding that you want to. There’s certainly no limit to the amount of new things to learn or places to learn about them.
But you do have to be ready to put your toe in the water!
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:28:33 +0000

Jill (in the box),
Thanks for adding a different voice to the discussion.
I hadn’t thought about how everyone, not just the over 40 crowd, must be feeling in reaction to the overwhelming speed of change we are all experiencing.
So, many you can teach us old dogs some new tricks. How do YOU keep current?
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:19:52 +0000

Jennifer,
“however, I would argue that actual messaging, in regards to tone and humor specifically, might be better left to marketing associates closer in age to your target audience.”
Hmm. Talk a little more about that if you will.
In my 20+ year career as a copywriter, I have assumed the persona of a 7 year old child, a very hip 16 year old (had to write a rap), a 35 year old mom (a project for Better Homes & Gardens & Kraft) and a 55+ man.
I always thought that was just my job. To know those people, their hearts and needs…and to write authentically from that place.
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:15:07 +0000

Toad, (Tangerine? TT?)
Every point you make is a valid one. There are plenty of external messages being shot at the over 40 crowd that suggest, especially in traditional agency roles — that they’re not as welcome anymore.
Do you see that as much on the strategic side? I find it fascinating that we would dismiss someone on the creative side but let the same aged old fart dictate the strategy. Which, at least in theory, should direct the creative.
Have you ever personally faced this demon of self-doubt? Have you wondered if you should hang up your hat? If so, how did you put yourself back on the path? If not, especially existing in an agency — how did you ward it off?
Drew

By: Ivana Taylor

Ivana Taylor — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:21:05 +0000

There must be something in the water on this topic!
I just wrote about this a little while ago (http://ivanastaylor.typepad.com/strategystew1/2007/10/3-things-you-ca.html)
I concurr with so many of you that say that getting old has more to do with your attitude than with your age. In fact, what a blessing to have age, experience and wisdom coupled with the ongoing desire to learn and experience new things. As marketers we have the opportunity to continue exploring and having fun with all the new and exciting trends that surround us.

By: Jillinthebox

Jillinthebox — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:39:27 +0000

Just a little addition to this really interesting discusssion.
I’m *only* 25 and I often feel like I’m out of the picture as well. It’s incredible how quickly new trends become obsolete so, even at 25, I can have some trouble.
It’s so true that it’s all about being curious. I have friends and colleagues of the same age who know nothing about ‘pop culture’ and those who are 20 or 30 years older who are more savvy than I am.
Not much can beat experience. To all those who’re thinking they’re too old: Just imagine you’re the young person in an office being faced with a new recruit who has 20 years more experience. Now who’s intimidated?!

By: Jennifer Marley

Jennifer Marley — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:52:11 +0000

I agree that aging doesn’t make you obsolete in the sense that you can always be in touch with methods of marketing, simply by being curious;
however, I would argue that actual messaging, in regards to tone and humor specifically, might be better left to marketing associates closer in age to your target audience.
There are simply some cultural movements in those areas that you cannot understand unless you are a part of them.

By: Tangerine Toad

Tangerine Toad — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 20:46:30 +0000

Very interesting post Drew.
As you know, I work on the ad agency side, in the creative department and age discrimination is rampant. I mean it’s rare to see anyone over 40, let alone 50, in a creative job.
Part of that is people’s own doings: they get caught in a trap, don’t want to learn, don’t make the effort to keep up with the world around them. Forget 2.0, they’re not even caught up on 1.0. And they’re not particularly concerned.
Another factor, one no one’s mentioned is money. Senior people make more money. And companies- be they ad agencies or corporate marketing departments- realize that they can pay a 30 year old half what they pay a 50 year old and get the same work out of them. They ignore the years of experience the 50 year old may bring to the party and focus on the numbers instead. (Also, if you fire someone to hire someone cheaper, you can avoid any sort of age discrimination lawsuit by claiming it was a business decision)
The other reason for this short-sightedness is one of my favorite shibboleths: Not Everyone Is An Upsale 30Something White Male Hipster. There’s a whole giant generation (the Boomers) who are 50 and up and just who do companies think is going to market to them? The emphasis on youth is why so much advertising sounds the same: it’s written by the same group of people
@Ann: I think the reason our generation is so sensitive to this (and you and I are around the same age) is that we are either the vanguard of Gen X or the very tail end of the Baby Boom. Either way, we’ve spent our whole lives being “the kids” to the giant Boomer cohort. We missed Woodstock and all the other defining elements of that generation because we were too young and to suddenly be on the other side, to be the big kids, is definitely weird.
@Drew again: I hope you told him that dying his hair didn’t fool anyone. A 50-ish man with no gray in his hair looks like… a 50 year old man with a dye job. And that sort of insecurity with who he was would be the first thing I’d pick up on.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 03:50:27 +0000

Jason,
You bring up a good nuance of this discussion — reality versus perception/prejudice.
And maybe the most debilitating prejudice of all is when we judge ourselves by our age?
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:25:31 +0000

Danny,
I don’t think it assumes anything other than…as we age, we run the risk of losing touch with cutting edge technologies, trends and cultural shifts.
I think the message that is coming through loud and clear is that we must CHOOSE to stay current. Otherwise, by default, we won’t.
If I didn’t choose to play with Twitter, Facebook, etc — I’d be out of touch pretty quick.
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:18:18 +0000

Gia –
You are right — our experience (or at least mine at 44) becomes the foundation of common senses and lessons learned that I can catapult over whatever this new world is going to toss at me!
Drew

By: Jason Alba

Jason Alba — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:45:01 +0000

Excellent discussion! I echo the thoughts on here that this has a lot less to do with age, and more to do with being in touch with what’s going on. I love to read Bill Vick’s tweets, as he seems to be more “in touch” with technology than most people that are on twitter.
I think the scary thing, though, is the age question as it relates to job/career transitions! Thanks Ann, for linking to my post, which has very interesting comments/discussion about age discrimination, which really sucks because someone looks at you and makes an initial judgment which can have more impact on whether you get the job than your ability to perform.
So, age = performance? No, not tied together (although hopefully we all get wiser as we get older!). But prejudice is alive out there, and that’s when this really becomes an issue

By: Danny Flamberg

Danny Flamberg — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:25:01 +0000

This is a funny conversation because it seems to assume that curiousity, intellectual ability, empathy, ability to process data, creative skills and sensory reception dims either with age or with distance (in age) between marketers and target customers. IMHO its just the opposite; age, experience and marketing savvy increase with age assuming you are paying attention and you aren’t locked into an intellectual paradigm that restricts your world view.
The key to effective marketing is to understand the drivers of customer interest and behavior and to position your brand and craft messages that will resonate with customers and prospects. The process has little to do with age and has everything to do with sensibility, sensitivity, mindset, discipline, skill and judgment.

By: gianandrea

gianandrea — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 06:50:14 +0000

I forget to say:
Brin and Page are the engine of Google and are very young but at the driver seat there is Eric Schmidt who is 52.

By: gianandrea

gianandrea — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 06:47:46 +0000

Even if the latter shift towards Web 2.0 is more disruptive than ever, I think that this sense of being too old was a constant factor in the world.
You are all english mother tongue but just imagine when the world got more open and a lot of respectful managers in Italy simply do not know a single word of English. And when the first processor got into our world (the first IBM or the software Symphony). To me it is just a matter of keeping evolving. Indeed is easier for the new kids on the block but experience is a priceless base for developing and using appropriately the new technology.

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 04:24:04 +0000

Ann,
Why do you think this 40-50 something generation is struggling with the the shift of being the “older pack” within the work place?
Is there something about that generation (which is mine as well) that makes it more of a struggle?
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 04:08:22 +0000

Ghetto,
You express your ideas like poetry. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:56:43 +0000

Gwyneth,
Thanks for sharing that excellent article! I think a lot of what we’re talking about is within our own control.
We can put boundaries around what we’re capable of or decide not to.
Drew

By: Drew McLellan

Drew McLellan — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:50:26 +0000

David,
I think you are right in terms of mingling with people of all ages.
What better way to learn what matters to someone 20 years your senior or junior?
Drew

By: Ann Handley

Ann Handley — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:53:55 +0000

This is a really great, thoughtful discussion… thanks all of you for participating, and to Drew for writing and moderating!
Drew wrote: “I think the difference is — what we use to natively know because we were the generation is now shifted to having to want to know, because we are no longer ‘the’ generation.”
…which is an interesting shift for those who start to have co-workers they think of as “kids,” like your 43-year-old friend, above. I think his generation, which is also mine, has a harder time making that shift than previous generations.

By: Ghetto Gates

Ghetto Gates — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:53:04 +0000

We are all products.
The best marketers know this.
Age is irrelevant. Culture is.
Even a poor kid from the ghetto can innovate marketing as well or better than a trained professional.
Great marketing starts with trusting your intuition.
How can old age crush curiosity?
Waining appreciation for pace the world changes.
Ghetto Gates is on the rise…

By: Gwyneth Dwyer

Gwyneth Dwyer — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:18:27 +0000

We have “generation gap” moments for sure at our firm – with age differences of 25 years.
“So what!” we say. We like a variety of perspectives. And we know creativity is ageless.
Here’s an interesting point of view:
http://creatingminds.org/articles/age.htm
I particularly like the reference to “habitual ossification” as a “trap of adulthood.”