Drew,

This hits home too hard. All marketing consultants get this, I suspect, and it is frustrating. But, while I agree with you, it is my job to see the customers' point of view and then see if it applies.

If the client shows our work internally, that isn't all bad, as staff often has insight to our client's customers. And it is that group that our work targets. The same can be said for friends of our clients who might also be or at least look like customers.

As for how we handle this, when a client comes back with changes that I do not agree with I argue my point of view for as long as I think it stands a chance of winning over the client. But when all is said and done, my client is the boss, and even if he or she is wrong I need to change the work in ways that they want, or I need to walk away from the project. (I have done that twice in the past three years.)

It's not always easy to be a consultant.

I completely buy what you're saying. As marketers, it is our responsibility to do the right thing for our clients, even if (especially if!) they believe the wrong path is the correct one.

Even so, I wouldn't be completely dismissive of what the hairdresser says. You'd be surprised the vast insight that can be obtained by listening to the opinions of nonmarketers, for those who are willing to tap into it.

If the hairdresser is wrong, there is a reason he is wrong, and it isn't simply because he's a hairdresser. We have to be prepared to answer that concern -- whatever it is, which means we have to know our stuff and how to communicate it.

Hairdressers have something of the client's that we need: Access and trust. If we don't have it, we need to get it. Or else the relationship just won't work.

Of course we have to remember that all marketers are liars ;) BTW welcome aboard, Drew!

What's that saying?

"A man with one watch knows what time it is, but a man with two watches is never sure."

When I hire a client, we agree they have but one blog coach. More than one...and I'm not one of them.

Others may cheer from the stands, but those are desktop quarterbacks.

Great at-bat here. Keep it up:-)

Kinda like raising teenagers. They ask their friends what they think... then we need to be the heavy....

: )

Nice debut post, Drew. Congrats.

I think the key is to know when to listen, and when to discard what you've heard. Like Cam, I think there's value in opinions. Sometimes. You just have to know which ideas are valuable, and which ones aren't.

Lewis,

Agreed...being a consultant is not always easy.

I think you show concepts and layouts to internal people to check it from their perspective but you and I both know that they're ill equipped (because they know too much) to see it from the audience's POV.

Like you, our policy is -- in the end, it's the client's money and we'll execute how they want. BUT...the price of admission to get us to do that is first they have to stay open to really hearing our concerns, if we have them.

Drew

drew, well said. some weeks ago, i posted a comment saying that it happened to me to give a sack to client and the reaction was of astonishment. i know that we all, both working as consultant as well as in public companies, have a budget but some clients are really too much frustrating. and i suppose they know that no agency will dare to sack them because of the bottom line.

Cam --

I think you and I are in agreement. I'm not suggesting that we dismiss anyone's take on something. But just because Grandma doesn't like orange doesn't mean that orange isn't the right choice.

Clients, especially when they feel out of their league, will gravitate towards subjective opinions based on who is speaking rather than the validity of the opinion.

It's easy to give in. It's difficult to educate the client so they get it. And so they have a "rebuttal" they're comfortable with when grandma gets on her orange rant.

But in the end, it is about earning the trust and respect of our clients so when pitted against grandma -- we have a fighting chance to help them not accidentally trip over themselves.

Drew

Mack,

But of course! Thanks for the welcome!

Drew

Great to have your marketing smarts here, Drew. Yes, marketing is one of those disciplines where everyone is an expert ;-). In a sense everyone is an expert, if they're part of the target market for the program or collateral.

But it really comes down to a balance of being open to feedback and then (politely) reminding the client that they hired us for a reason...and that we need to be given that trust in order to do our jobs. That said, there will always be second/fourth/umpteen opinions--I feel your pain.

Mike,

And you're able to set that expectation because your clients trust you.

And you also have the advantage. Your clients are usually pretty ignorant about blogging. So tehy almost have to rely on that blind trust.

Unfortunately, because everyone is a consumer of marketing, many assume they have the expertise.

So we have to work up a sweat sometimes to help them understand that we do this for a living AND (and it's a big and) we care about their success and outcomes as much as they do.

Drew

Ann,

I have discovered that very little in life cannot be likened to life with a teenager!

I'm not advocating that we stop listening. That would be about us, not about the client or their needs.

But I am advocating that we stop caving when a client has been unduly influenced by someone who's take on the project or situation is off base.

Ultimately, what I am advocating for is that we take the extra time to really educate our client about the whys and hows so they feel comfortable defending their own choices and the choices we've guided them to.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm thrilled to be here!

Drew

Gia,

Ahh, firing a client. While it's sacry -- it is also incredibly liberating. And honest.

The truth of it is -- if we cannot earn their trust for whatever reason, we cannot serve them. And if we cannot serve them, we have no business taking their money.

Drew

Drew wrote:

"I have discovered that very little in life cannot be likened to life with a teenager!"

...especially the painful parts, like root canals, blisters, getting hit by a bus... that sort of stuff. (LOL!!)

On the other hand, if you're marketing to teenagers, you might want to listen to what the babysitter has to say.

CK,

Thanks for the welcome. It's very cool to be here. Sort of like getting to sit at the grown up table for the first time!

I think you used the right word -- it is about balance. (As much of life is) It's listening and hearing underneath the story to the concern or the fear and then teaching to that. And of course, staying open to the possibility that you might be wrong.

Drew

Ann -- ah, root canal. When I put that through my teenage daughter translator it comes out "shoe budget."

Nedra -- LOL! Good point. But in that case, hopefully we are listening to many more than one teenager!

Drew

Gianandrea,

Bravo! My third year here, our president fired one of our largest clients for reasons along the lines of this post. We grew their business like crazy, but were always second-guessed - always. When she fired the client is was scary as hell - and exhilarating. We felt free. Ad in the long run, we were a much stronger company for it.

Good to see your byline here, Drew.

Since a lot of what we do is not hard science or precise like, say, medicine, many people think they can do it. And, who knows, maybe they can.

But if we have the expertise through education, experience and previous trial & error, we need to exert our expertise and gently remind clients that we are, in fact, the experts and not the hairdresser or accountant. Anyone, including a hairdresser, can have a good idea or a useful insight and when you see one, try to use it. But clients need to be told we're the experts they're paying -- unless they want to hand over the account to their hairdresser or accountant. If so, good luck to them, and we move on to a client who appreciates our work and counsel.

Spike,

It's a sticky wicket for sure. We work with our staff not to talk badly about or belittle clients but to respect them and hold them up/honor them where they are.

But sometimes clients are unbearable. The minute you turn that corner, you should do just want your boss did -- resign the account.

We won a very prestigious account. They talked about wanting a partner, etc. etc.

Within 6 months, we were their vendor. It wasn't worth it. If I am going to work my butt off and ask my employees to do the same, we deserve to do it with/for people who respect our talents.

We resigned the account. Never looked back.

Drew

David,

Agreed. Much like I said to Spike, sometimes the battle isn't worth it. I never mind a good discussion or pointed questions from a client. In fact, I like that. Let's learn more from each other. Everyone wins.

But, when my opinion holds no more weight than the poodle groomer's -- I take issue.

Fortunately for us, we have incredible clients. This is not a problem that we run into very often and it's not systemic, it's circumstantial. I can live with that!

Drew

Drew - GREAT first article. I couldn't be happier for you.

I think you're right... We're in agreement. It just hits a little close to home when someone is disqualified from being listened to because of his pedigree. Opinions have to stand on their merits, not simply because of who says it.

Cam,

I think my point was more that the marketing professional was not given any additional credence and that clients sometimes let everyone and anyone influence their opinion rather than relying on their marketing partner.

I agree with you. There's no degree required for a good idea!

Drew

Drew: wonderfully incindiary post.

The problem is that we, as marketers, just too often put out fluff without substance. If your hairdresser (or client) doesn't like your logo idea, show them the chart that says 57% of their target does -- so how about more cutting and less talking.

Without facts, we're all just throwing opinions in the air. Packaging, logos, brochures, and all the stuff that can be measured, should be measured. If an agency doesn't like being second guessed, make room in the budget for testing.

Subjectivity is a great equalizer.

Drew,

I really enjoyed reading this and it hit home for me... even though I am not a marketing pro.

This phenomena is common in my field too. Despite years of experience, credentials, and actual "cold facts" too, I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard "My _________ is a big investor and they said I should ..."

Finally caught up with this one Drew! Excellent, as always ... and congratulations.

Stephen,

You make an excellent point. In the ideal world, every client would have an ample budget that would include research.

I'm curious -- how do you handle it when a client either doesn't have the budget for testing or doesn't "believe" in it?

Do you walk away? Do you have a way to do a poor man's research or do you go with gut?

Thanks,

Drew

Art,

Thanks for coming by. You don't have to be a marketing pro to feel the pain of this post!

And as a guy who runs his own business -- you better be a marketing pro! You've got to drive the sales. The reality is that every business person is a marketing guy/woman. Whether you want to be one or not!

Drew

Gavin,

My partner in crime!

Thanks for the congrats. It's pretty cool to be here with you all.

Drew

CK nailed it...

"But it really comes down to a balance of being open to feedback and then (politely) reminding the client that they hired us for a reason...and that we need to be given that trust in order to do our jobs."

This is why I always get 50% up front. :) So I can walk away if they're not going to listen to me. I mean, why not do it yourself then?

I don't hire a plumber to clean my teeth. Don't hire me if you're not a marketer.

Drew: if the client habitually second guesses you and won't pay for research, you're probably not having much fun anyway; hopefully, they pay well.

If you don't like getting second guessed, do poor man's research -- the web makes this pretty easy these days. It takes a pretty cocky client to turn up their nose at quantitative data.

Setting expectations up front -- saying, "don't know about you, but we're big believers in facts, not feelings -- do you agree?" might help clarify things, too. Say that research to validate your work is part of your proposal. If they want to cut it out, make sure they know that each and every revision is done on the clock with the meter running, so you can leave the office every day feeling pretty good.

This is all tactical stuff. The point is that we work in what can be a completely subjective space, where a bigger logo or the difference between teal green and Cheetos Orange on the package is a matter of one person's personal taste -- unless, of course, someone does the homework. Why not volunteer to be the one, especially if you're the one in pain? At the end of the day, the work will be better and you'll have something concrete to show new clients -- who will trust you all the more, because you're thinking like they are. It isn't art, it's business.

Jim,

We do the 50% up front too. It just makes everything flow more smoothly.

I wonder if marketing pros could fend off some of this issue by addressing it before the project starts.

We have a standard "speech" that we give on this issue. We don't run into the issue very often. So I am always suprised when it comes up.

Do you address it on the outset?

Drew

@Drew, Well, perhaps I'm a bit snobby, but I don't take work unless the client understands that it's going to be my way before hand. Otherwise, why hire me?

It's the customers who want to argue with me up front that I send away.

Remember though, I'm not a full-time consultant, I have my own other web businesses. So I can be picky where others probably can't. So I understand sometimes you can't turn down work, and that's fine.

Stephen,

We're in agreement. The tactics you suggest pretty much match how we handle this situation when it comes up.

Fortunately, it is few and far between. But, I think depending on the business' size and scope -- many believe that research is outside their budget comfort zone.

I think its our responsibility, as you suggest, to build it into the proposals and help clients understand the downside of not pulling the trigger on it.

One of the arguments that we use is that in the end, they save money because we get it right the first time.

Drew

While it is true that everyone's opinion might be helpful, let's face there is no shortage of opinions. I believe this common problem is hinged on the fact that there is no genuine respect for for the industry as a whole. Architects are designers also BUT they command a great deal of respect from the public. They have industry standards and strong professional criteria. Try calling yourself an architect. Marketers/graphic designers are there own worst enemies. Any bozo with a computer can call themselves a graphic designer (and do). Desk top publishing when introduced about 25 years ago only excelerated this nonsense.

We all fight this battle. It's a shame we have to resign clients or prove our worth with data, on the battle field. A lot of comments here reinforce the client's behaviour with the acceptance of a client's best friend's hairdressor's opinion. I don't believe this problem has a solution this late in the game. For myself, I protest to the client and state my professional opinion and if I lose, I state that I am going on record as dissapproving of the decision and move forward with their direction. When their decison falls flat, they only have themselves to blame.

So to sum up, I don't believe the problem lies with our clients but with ourselves - we have allowed and in some cases encouraged this behaviour.

Ed,

Valid points. I have often said, the computer has not always served the marketing industry well. Before the computer, what we did was magic. Now, a 12 year-old can use clip art and a spinning font and voila, we have an ad!

I agree with your stance. Our standard line is -- you pay us to give you the best of our expertise. So, you have to listen to it. But, if you still want to do it your way, after you listen -- we'll do it your way. After all, it is their money. But if it happens repeatedly -- we know the relationship isn't going to hold and we're better off letting them find a new vendor. I have no desire to be a vendor.

Do you think part of the problem is that the perceived risk of getting it wrong is small or at the very least, hard to measure? If an architect gets something wrong, people are going to die. If a logo's color doesn't reflect the brand promise -- will they know? Is it measureable in terms of sales?

This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks for jumping in!

Drew

Drew, you're right on the mark. It's difficult to get any input on thought leadership, product strategy and demand generation, but there's no shortage of input on website, collateral and logo design. No training or skills are required to qualify as "an arbiter of taste".

The most important opinions to factor in are from your target audience -- and they may have no input at all. If you're selling financial software, ask your CFO for input. He/she may be pleasantly surprised.

Of course, if you're marketing hair care products, go ahead and test your new logo with your hair stylist...

Su,

You make a good point. Most clients won't get into a debate about strategy but because we are all consumers of marketing creative -- therefore we must all be experts!

I don't think we'll ever get completely away from clients being influenced by others' subjective takes. The key, as several of the commenters have mentioned is:

1) Earning your client's trust
2) Testing and taking the subjectivity out as best you can

Drew